Making the protests count

He loves education -- but will he raise taxes to fund it?

It was wonderful to see so many people all over the state taking to the streets to protest cuts in education and public services. The rally at San Francisco’s Civic Center wasn’t just young radical agitators, either -- most of the people there were parents with kids, families, people who are just fed up with the threats to the future of this state and don’t want to take it any more.

And now that the press and public and maybe even the elected officials are focused on the issue, it’s time to move to the next step. Politicians can talk all they want about “standing with the families” and supporting education, but in the end, there’s only one way to adequately fund K-12 and higher education in California. And that’s to raise taxes.

You can talk about waste all you want, and there’s certainly waste at the University of California. But we’re looking at a need that runs into the billions, multiple billions, tens of billions -- and eliminating a few million bucks of waste here and there isn’t going to solve the problem.

You’re not going to solve it by reallocating the state’s budget money, either, since there’s no single large pot of cash that can be taken and given to the schools without devastating another necessary public service. The only real possibility is the prison system, a financial sink hole if ever there were one -- but again: You can’t just cut prison spending by eliminating services to prisoners. They get so little as it is -- and the federal courts won’t allow any reductions in health care and the state’s already under court order to reduce overcrowding.

You could probably solve half of the schools’ fiscal problems by releasing from prison every single inmate serving time for a drug offense; that’s the kind of dramatic steps we’re talking about. And if anyone wants to launch a political campaign to let 30,000 prisoners free tomorrow, I’m with you.

But it’s not going to happen, not in this climate. So the only real option is to get more revenue. That means raising taxes at the state level, repealing Prop. 13 to allow local property tax hikes, or raising taxes at the city level.

And here’s who the protesters need to be targeting:

1. The governor. Arnold Schwarzenegger not only refuses to allow new taxes as part of the budget, he vetoed Sen. Mark Leno’s bill that would have allowed local government to raise its own car taxes. He’s at (916)-445-2841.

2. The Republican leadership of the state Legislature. These folks go into the budget talks with the power of a minority that can block the two-thirds vote required for tax hikes, and they’ve both signed “no new taxes” pledges. These two people are among the single largest reason that the California school are facing such huge cuts. Assemblymember Martin Garrick,  916-319-2074. Senator Dennis Hollingsworth, (916) 651-4036.

3. Attorney General Jerry Brown. He’s running for governor as the Democratic candidate, and he has already announced that he won’t raise taxes and that Prop. 13 is untouchable. He won’t even support Assemblymember Tom Ammiano’s bill to legalize and tax marijuana. He needs to hear from his constituents that those positions won’t fly. (916) 322-3360

4. The mayor of San Francisco. Gavin Newsom is happy to announce that he supports education funding, but he’s never come forward with a single significant new tax increase for the city. Local taxes could be split between the general fund and the schools, and the progressives on the Board of Supervisors are looking for revenue options. Call the mayor and tell him: If Sacramento won’t raise taxes to educate our kids, we’d like to do it at home, in San Francisco. 415-554-6141.

5. Any state or local official who claims to support the schools but won’t publicly endorse and work for higher taxes. Folks, there’s no other way out of this.

And at the next rally, let’s chant: Repeal Prop. 13, Now! Tax the rich in San Francisco -- Now!


Great editorial, Tim. I admittedly grumbled when I made out the first of my income tax payments this year. But you know what? Ultimately, paying my fair share of taxes mattered to me because my money's an investment in keeping California and America's governments running.

If our elected officials don't want to raise taxes to pay for education, then what are they willing to raise taxes for and why? Personally, I'd love to see education automatically get the tax dollars they need and the cops and fire departments have to go to the voters to request a tax increase to pay for their services. It'd be the sort of scenario that would turn the political right wing into a death cage match.

Posted by Peter on Mar. 05, 2010 @ 4:28 pm

with its radical, Green-controlled majority more concerned with social issues than actually improving our schools. Its insensitivity to minority concerns by continuing the dreadful lottery system is incomprehensible and every year it's the same old thing - despite a shrinking enrollment they need more money. No. Enough is enough.

Yes to more for the UC system. Zero for the radical San Francisco school board.

Posted by Lucretia the Trollop on Mar. 05, 2010 @ 5:42 pm

Yes, lets raise taxes


Former Assembly speaker gave raises before leaving

Friday, March 5, 2010

(03-05) 10:53 PST Sacramento, Calif. (AP) --

Former Assembly Speaker Karen Bass gave 10 percent salary increases to 20 staff members working for the Assembly Democratic caucus just before she left the post.

The raises were handed out last week, The Sacramento Bee reported Friday.

Seventeen of the 20 raises went to employees with annual salaries below $50,000, while two went to employees who earn more than $75,000, the newspaper reported.

The raises come as California faces another $20 billion budget shortfall and state employees continue three-day-a-month unpaid furloughs. Bass came under fire for two previous rounds of raises, but rescinded one of them after media reports.

By comparison, the state Senate is continuing its salary freeze and monthly furlough day, spokeswoman Alicia Trost said.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 05, 2010 @ 5:52 pm

Glen, of course that looks awful and she shouldn't have done it, but don't be an idiot here -- that's such a tiny amount of money, peanuts, birdseed, decimal dust, that it has nothing to do with the state's budget problems at all. These are multi-billion-dollar problems; this focus on a couple of bucks in raises misses the point.

Posted by tim on Mar. 05, 2010 @ 8:51 pm

It's an example of how your democrats and progressives (and republicans) treat the tax payer's (including you) like shit at every turn, and then they come begging for more, with you cheering along with some excuse or rationalization.

That was a typical Karen Bass scheme that she has been pulling her entire career and still she is loved by the goofy left.

I was once dumb enough to think the left was honest and wanted good government, then I grew up and figured out that it was all a spoils system. The republicans have their oil companies, prison guard unions tobacco companies subsidies. The democrats have their SEIU bosses, trial lawyers, minority special interests programs.

When the money runs out for all of that they come begging for more to save the schools, and you rationalize a career bottom feeders bullshit.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 10:50 am

These complaints about misuse of tax dollars and allegedly wrongheaded school board members make as much sense as people swearing that planes should be banned because airliners were used to bring down the World Trade Center. Governments (and any other big institution handling a lot of cash) will have its abusers. Are Glen and others making the silly claim that unless government is purified whiter than the driven snow it shouldn't be supported? The trick is to make sure you do your damnedest to keep the abuse under control. Complaining about government officials' pay is an attempt at misdirecting attention away from the fact that the complainers don't want to do jack to change things for the better.

Frankly, I wish the anti-tax crowd displayed the cojones to publicly declare "Actually, I don't give a rat's ass about childrens' public education or making any sort of contribution to society. I'm looking only to build my personal nest egg as much as possible." As is, the anti-tax folks have served their rhetorical starve government abuse horseshit sandwiches for decades...and the taste hasn't magically improved.

Posted by Peter on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 12:27 pm

Peter, the San Francisco school board asks for more money every year while enrollment continues to shrink. Tell me why it is comprehensible that an organization with a shrinking user base should receive additional funds every single year?

Posted by Lucretia the Trollop on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 4:02 pm

So, Lucretia, what's your baseline number for saying "okay, San Francisco should get out of the public education business and leave kids to either find private schools or go without education?" Because if one were to take your comment to its logical extreme, that's ultimately what you're asking for.

Posted by Peter on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 10:32 am

That was a good strawman, but sadly lacking with any relation to reality.

I would love to see an increase in education funding, but the democrats who set the budget priorities in the state refuse to do that and you "liberals" just keep voting for them.

I know reality is a bitter pill for you dreamers but the democratic party in this state has more important things to spend money on than school, they like the republicans have to pay off their base, a base that doesn't include school children. Any tax increase will have ten percent going to schools and the rest will go to all sorts of other things and you will be right back here complaining about your strawman. Keep voting for waste cases like Karen Bass and the schools will get even worse.

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 4:37 pm

I've lived here my whole life. I remember when Prop 13 was enacted there was an immediate downward spiral for schools--music and arts programs went away overnight. Then athletics began to diminish, and class sizes got bigger and bigger.

Today this situation is much worse. I'm the parent of first grader at a public school in San Francisco. To make up for the lack of resources, the PTA has raised money to have music, art, and physical education. With the current budget cuts, these funds most likely go to paying teachers' salaries.

This situation is completely ridiculous.

We're in one of the most affluent places in the world where technology and innovation abounds (iPhone! Twitter! Google!), but our educational system is broken. It's scary to think what kind of workforce we'll have in 10, 20 years.

There aren't any easy answers. This didn't happen overnight, but I do think Prop 13 needs to be repealed.

Prop 13 is unfair and biased legislation that helps large corporations, like Chevron, reap huge profits by not paying their fair share of property tax.

Posted by Jill on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 5:31 pm

As a kid I remember when Prop 13 was enacted. There was an immediate downward spiral for my school--music and arts programs went away almost overnight. Then athletics began to diminish and class sizes were bigger.

Today this situation is much much worse. I'm the parent of first grader at a public school in San Francisco. To make up for the lack of resources, the PTA has raised money to have music, art, and physical education. With the current budget cuts, these funds most likely go to paying teachers' salaries.

This situation is completely ridiculous.

We're in one of the most affluent places in the world where technology and innovation abounds (iPhone! Twitter! Google!), but our educational system is broken. It's scary to think what kind of workforce we'll have in 10, 20 years.

There are no easy answers, but I believe Prop 13 needs to be repealed.

This unfair and biased legislation is helping large corporations like Chevron reap profits by not paying their fair share of property tax.

Posted by Jill on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 5:49 pm

I don't get what Glen and Lucretia want. When the moderates and conservatives ran San Francisco, the schools were worse. You want California to spend less on education than any other state in America? Or do you just want to be pains in the ass and point out every time someone wastes a dollar or two? Wake up, folks: There is no institution under human control -- private sector, public sector, run by conservatives, run by progressives -- that has a $500 million budget (like SFUSD) or a $6 billion budget (like SF) and has no waste at all.

You complain about the progressives spending money; what do you want to cut?  

Posted by tim on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 6:01 pm

I don't get what Glen and Lucretia want.


You don't? I certainly do. They *want* to: moan, whine and complain about anything this City does and to moan, whine and complain about progressives or anyone they perceive as being progressive. At least one of them refers of undocumented immigrants as "illegal aliens" (I can't stand that hateful language) and refers to "commies" (I haven't heard that outdated language since Reagan was in office). From my experience, it's usually the rabid regressive trolls who use such language. (Paid) Trolls do their best to get a rise out of people and that's mainly their sole purpose along with attacking and refusing to answer questions asked by others who comment. It's best to just ignore the trolls, which is what I plan to do from now on. Don't give them the satisfaction of the rise they're looking for. I've asked before (but never get an answer): are they paid per word or paragraph? And do they have to get a response/reaction from someone before they get paid?

Posted by Sam on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 8:43 pm

[Hola. I hadn't given much thought to Internet trolls until recently, although on occasion I've argued with enough of them. From my experience, they are like talking to a wall. One doesn't get anywhere with them and that's their intent. As the following article says, it's best to ignore them. I found this article and thought that some here might find it interesting.]

Trolls Exposed: What kind of troll is disrupting your online community?
Dave Stancliff/For the Times-Standard
Posted: 05/31/2009 01:27:12 AM PDT

Don't feed the trolls.

You know the ones I'm talking about. They prey on news forums, chat rooms, and other online communities. Their purpose: to disrupt any conversation or thread, and to get an emotional response from some unwary person. Ignoring them and not responding to their posts is your best option.

What kind of people are trolls? They're cowards. Lonely cowards. Their posts seldom show any real imagination and often resort to childish name-calling.

Trolls are often extremely pedantic and rarely answer direct questions. There are some exceptions, but most aren't smart enough to make a reasonable argument. They're not interested in reason. They repeat themselves and say stupid, off-focus things to disrupt conversations.

Some trolls like to brag about their IQ. They try to come across like rocket scientists to lure the unwary and then pounce with a verbal attack. Trolls count the responses they get. [Sam's editorial: That answers my question that I've wondered about.] It must be highly pleasurable for the poor creatures to count coups if they disrupt other people's emotional equilibrium.

Trolls call it “Lulz,” a corruption of “LOL” (laugh out loud). Jason Fortuny is the most famous troll in America (using his real name in an interview). He was interviewed in the New York Times on August 3, 2008. This article is the best read I've found on the subject of trolls.

Fortuny's passion for “pushing people's buttons” made him the most prominent troll on the Internet according to the Times. He managed to thoroughly embarrass a lot of men with his infamous “Craigslist Experiment” as described in the Times article.

Like many trolls, Fortuny claims his pastime is just a big joke, a social experiment. He lives alone, spends countless hours anonymously insulting people, doesn't have a full time job, is 32 years old, and brags (to anyone who will listen) about being a troll.

For all of Fortuny's faults, no one has ever accused him of murder, like the woman in the Megan Meier cyberbullying case.

The suicide of a teenage girl highlights another type of troll. A deadly troll, sometimes called a cyberbully, took on a fake identity and seduced a vulnerable girl in MySpace. When the troll was sure she had fallen in love with the fake identity she (this woman posed as a man) broke up with the girl and said terrible things to her.

It was more than Megan Meier could stand and she killed herself. The warning is clear here. You never really know who you are talking with on the Internet, especially in online communities like FaceBook and MySpace.

For a guide on trolls go to, which offers an Intelligence Test for Trolls. For an insight into cyberbullying check out the book “BullyBaby: Portrait of a Cyberbully,” by Andrew Heenan. “Dealing with Internet Trolls,” posted on on April 17th, 2009, is another good information source.

Legislating cyberspace to go after trolls isn't feasible in my opinion. The web is a new frontier for freedom of speech and I don't want to see that changed by Orwellian laws that make it a crime to hurt someone's feelings.

So what do you do about trolls? Recognize that they are part of the Internet community and will be there as long as there are lonely misfits and people who have trouble communicating in the real world.

They crawl through cyberspace seeking to create chaos. It gives them a sense of power when they feel powerless in the real world. They get to say things they'd never dare say to people directly. At best, they are lonely cowards. Ignore them and don't let them spoil your use of the Internet.

Trolls are not hard to spot. For example, go to an online newspaper community like the Times-Standard's Topix Forum. In no time, you'll begin to recognize some names posted in every topic. Realizing this, trolls will sometimes change their identities, but their repetition and negative comments generally “out them” to an aware community.

There are also paid political trolls. They actually get paid to surf through online communities and disrupt meaningful conversations while touting their party line. Both Republicans and Democrats are guilty of this underhanded practice.

As It Stands, there's really only one practical way to deal with trolls: don't feed them!

Posted by Sam on Mar. 09, 2010 @ 12:21 am

Sam, thanks for reprinting the article. Let us leave the conservative trolls to argue in a dark corner with their shadow images of progressives. Meanwhile, let's work to get the Lakoff initiative onto the ballot and to help support Ammiano's split-roll measure.

Posted by Peter on Mar. 10, 2010 @ 10:29 am

SF progressives put prop H on the ballot, the cities true believers voted for it and it cost the city 3/4 of a million dollars in legal fees, the city has a make work program that employs a dozen people that found work in the private sector for a dozen people or so, the city advertises services to illegal aliens, the city has its own labor department, the city has its own foreign policy, the city has a ridiculous department of environment, the city has an endless number of fairness commissions, the city's DA office runs a jobs program etc... The city gets itself involved in every idiotic operation that some neighborhood complainer or "fairness" screamer can come up with, so schools get the shaft.

Any hike in taxes would not go to the schools, I wish it would, but you progressives have more important things to spend money on.

Stop trumpeting out these ridiculous arguments about waste that no one is making, its about priorities, and schools are not a SF progressive priority, all the happy talk in the world will not change that fact.

Even Chris Daly knows to take his kids out of the mess he help create.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 6:53 pm

San Francisco helps fund local schools out of the rainy day fund created by a progressive supervisors, Tom Ammiano. City money helped save hundreds of teachers' jobs last year.

The SFUSD is not part of city government, and gets most of its money from the state, but the city CAN and HAS helped out.

Posted by tim on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 7:16 pm

Before Prop. 13, local property taxes funded schools.

Posted by tim on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 7:18 pm

Glen, you could eliminate the Dept. of the Environment, kill every commission you don't like, get rid of the mayor's jobs program ... and you'd still be nowhere near touching the bulk of the budget deficit. It's fun to talk about how the city wastes money hiring people who don't do any work (plenty of 'em out at the airport), but the reality is that the vast bulk of the city's spending goes for public health, police and fire, Muni, public works, parks and recreation and programs mandated by the state. You could break the Muni drivers union and change the work rules and you'd save maybe $30 million, less than a tenth of the deficit.

So I don't get where you think we should cut to solve the problem.

Posted by tim on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 7:22 pm

You're willfully obtuse on this subject.

There are dozens if not hundreds of ridiculous operations in this city, the guy who was in the Chronicle weeks ago who bragged about not riding in a car for a year, he was a "community film maker" for the city. Why does the city have this agitprop producer on the payroll? These are just the ones off the top of my head.

If I said that most republicans flush piles of cash down the drain on useless paybacks for election support, or based on their kooky ideology (which of course is true) every progressive in this town would agree.

When its said the sainted progressives in this town waste piles of cash paying off the public employee unions, non profits, and jambing their ideology down out throats, it's an attack on the anointed.

Add the cities left wing goofy spending to that at the state level and yes, schools are way down the list. Karen Bass has been throwing tax payer money away for years and she is loved by the left.

I would suspect you are familiar with history some, when the Christians took over the Roman empire after complaining about persecution, they were far worse. When the commies took over the Soviet Union they were far worse than the Tzar ever was. Now that the progressives have got the city they are going to zen fascist us until we say uncle.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 10:54 am

Boy, does anybody remember why prop 13 was passed in the first place? Rapidly rising property taxes were force folks out of their homes. All of the folks who say we need to repeal prop 13 need to address how they would solve this issue. How are people to keep their homes? Especially retirees? (Yes, I understand that corporations abuse prop 13, but none of the prop 13 repeal people are suggesting any sort of plan to help middle class folks stay in their homes)

Posted by Jim on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 10:04 am

Jim, did you know about Phil Ting's split roll proposal? The medium used to assess property taxes is split into separate residential and commercial rolls. That way, the retirees and homeowners wind up getting assessed at a different and lower rate than that levied against more prosperous commercial property owners.

Posted by Peter on Mar. 09, 2010 @ 10:14 am

When California always ranking in the 40's out 50 in test scores how can you ask Californian to cough up more for higher education? It's a wonder if a California child has a chance to attend college at all.

Posted by Jerry Jarvis on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 11:30 am

I want someone to answer why the SF public school district should ask for more money every year when its has a declining enrollment? Why? Would someone please answer that for me? Why should an institution less and less people are using get more and more money every year?

Posted by Lucretia the Trollop on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 3:08 pm

So much of what progressives do puzzles me.

The building trades employ many people at good wages but the cities progressives who have taken over the schools don't seem too interested in that career path in the schools.

Instead they follow intellectual fads, the new school district chief bragged that he was going to send all the kids to college prep classes, the ones that didn't drop out anyways, I guess.

I don't have a problem spending more and more on the schools myself, I wish they would. By spending more on schools I mean lowering class size, bringing back welding type classes, and other classes that the progressive obsession with class and status hate.

I don't mean just spending more on teacher salaries or encounter groups playing the ungame, and other failed feel good tragicomic non sense.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 6:41 pm

By spending more on schools I mean lowering class size, bringing back welding type classes,...


Oh I do so agree. Yes, they should indeed bring back welding type classes. I mean, there's a tremendously huge demand for welding these days considering virtually nothing is manufactured here in the States. Millions of jobs have been outsourced to China and India. Perhaps they need welders there, but I would imagine they already have welders there. So after one learns the skills of welding, what the hell would they use it for HERE?

What should be done is to bring the millions of outsourced jobs BACK to the States (which ain't going to happen) and revive the unions so people can be trained by the unions as an apprentice, as used to be the case. It's much too expensive for the schools to do the training other than just real basic training.

Posted by Sam on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 8:09 pm

There are thousands of iron workers in the Bay Area building things like the bay bridge and office towers.

Welding will help you in all the trades including; elevator construction, carpentry, sheet metal, pipe fitting, plumbing, etc..

Other careers are in auto repair, do people ship their cars to japan to get fixed? Do you send your house to the place where they made the pipes when one rusts? Do you send your toilet off to get unplugged? If a socket in your house went bad would you tear out the wiring and send it all to where it was made so that they could find the short? Do building just show up in the city already built?

You are comical little person.

Progressive would rather see the huge high school drop out rate they helped along rather than spend money on classes that are a better track for some students. If they spent the money and kids started taking these classes the progressives would see it as an insult to their views on class.

What do you think would keep many poor kids in school? A couple of classes a day that have them learning the basics of welding, auto repair, and wiring... or some college prep classes that they will skip that have no bearing on their lives?

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 8:55 pm

If you are so adamantly and fervently down on progressives, what are you? Are you into that tea party stuff or flat-earthers or what? I can't figure you out, no matter what I read that you write. It all sounds as though you are on some intoxicating substance. It's one ramble after the other. You don't really make much sense really. But maybe that's your put out your "bait" and get a reaction. You have little intelligence, at least that you use or display on here. You seem to talk out of both sides of your mouth, and really say nothing of value.

Posted by Sam on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 9:25 pm

Sam says there are no trade jobs left and teaching students them is a waste, when proven a ridiculous he resorts to ad Homonyms, typical progressive antic.

Sam look up

sf building trades council

and educate your class obsessed progressive self

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 12:55 am

You have no reading or comprehension skills. Go read my comments again. You have made erroneous, baseless assumptions about what I have said, as you've done in previous comments. You never answer questions. And if you knew me well, you would know that I can't stand classes. I am the opposite of "class obsessed." True progressives oppose a class society.

But I'm wasting my time with this, because you won't comprehend this either.

So try very hard, actively listen and comprehend this: Goodbye.

Posted by Sam on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 1:27 pm

I thought you left after that eight years of Bush.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 3:06 pm

"But growing class sizes are a scenario that has become all too real for San Francisco Unified School District teachers, who are facing the pain induced by shrinking school revenue at the same time enrollment is soaring. About 4,800 young children will go to their first day of school Monday, and for the second year in a row, class sizes will grow — most public school kindergarten classrooms in The City will have 22 students this year, up from an average of 20 students per class that enrolled for the 2008-09 school year."

The above excerpt is from the article:

"City's increase in kindergartners leaves less room to learn."
You can Google it.

I tried to put the link in but I got this message:

"Your submission has triggered the spam filter and will not be accepted."

Posted by Sam on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 6:55 pm

There has been a direct correlation between the collapse of the economy and people pulling their kids out of private school and putting them into public schools. There was an article on about this phenomenon - it's called "Private School Refugees."

I'm not conceding your point on enrollment but I am saying if it were true I wouldn't be entirely surprised and I would attribute it to the situation I outlined above. But for years the SF public school district suffered from declining enrollment, if that's changed then it's a welcome turnaround.

Posted by Lucretia the Trollop on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 1:04 pm

whether you believe it or not. Some people don't let facts get in their way, instead they prefer to make up their own to suit their agenda. I didn't write the article and I'm not connected in any way with the San Francisco Examiner. What I did was what you could have done. A little bit of research using Google in order to be current on the issue. So if you question the article or have a problem with it, you can take it up with the Examiner.

Posted by Sam on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 3:07 pm

web page?

"Some people don't let facts get in their way, "

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 3:34 pm

But we need to fund schools properly. Enrollment is increasing not decreaseing.

Kids are the future, so if you want a crime ridden California carry on the way we are going.

If you want a smart work force fund the schools

It is just common sense, and should not be politized

Posted by Chris Pratt on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 1:02 pm

To my more conservative critics:


I appreciate your perspective, and this is an open forum where all views are allowed and encouraged. But let's try to be civil to each other, okay? It doesn't do anyone any good to make personal attacks and call people names. There's been a fair degree of nastiness in the past few discussions, and I'd like to see it stop. Please: Disagree, make your case forcefully, and show some respect for the rest of us.







Posted by tim on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 3:10 pm